Subs in TWG

Subject: Subs in TWG 8/22/2008, 9:55 am

Getting very annoyed by something in TWG. I fuigure that I can sharpen up my build by having more submssion moves. I get good sub bonuses from versatility and got a real boost from haveing a sub finisher for the first time about a month back.

My only sub moves were Head Lock and Strangle Hold, both with a combined abilites of 21 which is pretty low considering my best moves are 60 in combined abilities.
However picking ordinary sub moves is virtually impossible without knowing thier submssion bonus.

I can see how they are ordered on the 'Moves List' and so have an idea of which are stronger or weaker. However when you go to buy them they are very cheap compared to direct damage moves and so are suggested to be much weaker?!?

Have tried looking for guidance on the forums but only find a lot of annoying 'help me with my build' posts.

So I have had to throw a few subs into my build (the 'best' ones I can get with my stats) and see if my results get better or tank.

Anyone know a good forum post or reference for advice on this??

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/22/2008, 2:02 pm

U can question here....

Really a Balanced can be a good submissioner, but take in clear some characteristics of submissions:

1º Submissions cost the triple-stamina. Then balance ur DD Moves with Submission moves.
I've tried full-subs builds + DD Finisher low adrenaline, with standing moves moving to subs, and that was a full-suicide built, or winning fast, if u get injuries (normally not), or losing fast, spending lost of stamina, with only 2 hits of the rival.

2º Damage of a submission does, Initial Damage + Plus damage of consequents grips.

Example: A Violent submission, with 2 Agonizing Grip, can make near the triple of a violent damage.
A Strong Submission, with 2 weak grips, makes a strong hit, no more.

3º Initial Damage of submission is: Damage of the move + % (50% Direct Damage Increader, 50% Submission Damage Increaser). Its one stat that lacks 70 or 80% of Techniques, having low Direct Damage. I do ..... waiting to get Ankle Lock and rising up.

4ª Change of Injurie, depends highly in: Ur HP + Stamina VS HP Rival + Stamina Rival.
Example: U are in Orange, rival in Blue. Dont think of getting and injurie, if it isnt a luckie injurie.
Example: U are in Dark Green, rival in Yellow. High chance of getting multiple injuries.

Ah, and for Finisher Submission Moves:
Get
a) A finisher with low damage: Example Rehab finisher 2-5 dmg, and go up Submission Bonus
b) A finisher with low submission bonus, with good damage: 20-20 and going up.

A good position for subs finishers can be stunned, since is the position where rival has less submission and pinning defense.

Making a Submission Move as trademark?? For techniques is a good option, for balanced depends of the move, a sub of 60 combined points can be a good trademark, but u will hate it when appears at the beginning of the match and waste that trademark with a Strong Damage move.

If u have more questions, ask.

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/22/2008, 2:09 pm

From what I hear, the best non-tech only subs you can get to augment your build are:

Ultimate Armbar (groggy)
Boston Crab (both 1 legged and regular; grounded)
Butterfly lock (grounded)
Sleeper Hold (groggy, debatable)
Octopus Hold (best in bent down at least)
Chicken Wing (grr..can't remember from top of my head what position)
Triangle Choke (grounded)

I do agree though that the hidden sub bonus can be an annoyance (since I have a balanced on hwg and not having my 80+ sub bonus really shows in moves). Sub moves are always cheaper since the game checks by direct damage on moves and ignores the hidden sub bonus on subs. I upgraded my ankle lock (max damage 20) to level 10 way cheaper than I did a vertabreaker (max damage 60) to level 5.

But Subs have to be low damage for a good reason since if a person hits:
*light, excruciating, excruciating
compared to
*violent, ruthless, weak

The violent, ruthless, weak does more overall damage, since the start of the sub (light, strong etc) determines alot more than people realize; hence why techs can lay agonzing holds all day on resists, but if they are hitting light at the beginning it doesn't do much considering the stamina, hp, and dr that a resist would have.

So overall also buying those subs that have a damage of like 5-7, 7-9, something with a high max damage will help, but just don't buy as it won't do you any good having a huge array of subs since having a few that will level up alot will help you alot more. Remember, the strongest sub in the game has a max DD of 22, so it's something to keep in mind.

Hopefully this answered your question somewhat since I know the forums probably doesn't have it anymore since they changed over to the new board; and it was Phoenix who wrote all the original FAQ's that had stuff in that only the 'old guard' would know now, and most of them don't post in the boards anymore unless they are board staff.

((And Plin's answer is really good! I'm such a slow typer lol))

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/22/2008, 3:00 pm

Her Jadeness wrote:: Chicken Wing (grr..can't remember from top of my head what position)

Grounded. I know because I'm currently using it as a trademark (Power Twist)

Good list, but you forgot Fujiwara Armbar (3/15/8, Grounded, Lightness+Frenzied Urge=63)

Oh, and the in parentheses part is Min/Max/Attack, Position, Skill requirements

The other moves in Jade's list in this fashion are as follows (I looked it up so you don't have to):
Ultimate Armbar (3/9/11, Groggy, Power Grappling+Feint=32)
Boston Crab (1/12/18, Grounded, Ruthless Grasp+Escape Artist=53)
Single-Leg Boston Crab (1/10/15, Grounded, Thick Skin+Force of Will(AKA Willpower)=46)
Butterfly Lock (3/9/11, Grounded, Ruthless Grasp+Escape Artist=32)
Octopus Hold (5/8/13, Bent Down, Improved Reflexes+Lightness=44)
Chicken Wing (4/11/12, Grounded, Improved Reflexes+Frenzied Urge=44)
Triangle Choke (2/10/14, Grounded, Power Grappling+Ruthless Grasp=48 )

Grounded is best for Trademark sub moves, because there are better non-sub moves in the other positions

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/24/2008, 2:14 pm

Forgot one that's better than all of the above:

Camel Clutch (3/14/19, Grounded, Rage+Stiff Blow=63)

Lot of work to get it, but if you're STR focused, you could do worse.

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/25/2008, 6:21 am

What about torture rack and bear hug??

Subject: Re: Subs in TWG 8/26/2008, 5:21 am

Thanks for the tips all. I am not intending to moveover to a sub build wholesale. Just trying to spice up my moves list.

My next Balanced class moves are a way off. I need to level all my stats 3 more times to get moves like the 'Samoan Driver' and that is in the Groggy possition where I am allready quite strong. So am trying to fill in the gaps from other stats that Balanced moves dont help me with.

For example form what I can see there is not a single 'Grounded' move availbe to Balanced builds by building up Versatility. SoI need to find some quality there from other stats.